John McLaughlin Interview,
London, 1988,
by James Connolly
Looking back.......
My interview with John McLaughlin took place in April 1988, at the offices of Serious Productions in Soho, London. I was working as a teacher, and also as a part-time journalist for Ireland's only jazz magazine JazzNews, now defunct. The interview with John, as with all my subsequent interviews with other jazz musicians (including Wayne Shorter, Pat Metheny, Al di Meola, The Manhattan Transfer, Bill Frisell, Airto Moreira and Flora Purim), wouldn't have taken place without the hard work and dedication of my Dublin editor, and bon vivant, Dara O'Lochlann, sadly now deceased.
John was in England with percussionist Trilok Gurtu and bassist Jeff Berlin. He would return with Kai Eckhardt (as bassist) the following year to play the concert immortalized on the recording ‘John McLaughlin Trio: Live at the Royal Festival Hall, November 27, 1989’. The repertoire was similar, but in 1988, John was not using the synth attachment (by Photon) he used so well and so extensively on that recording, just the (magnificent) Abe Wechter electro-acoustic guitar. In 1988, they were booked to play not in London, or anywhere else, but only in the Northern city of Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. They played two sets: one at 6.30 and the second from 9, at the Newcastle Town Hall, the day after this interview. I travelled up to see these and to further talk with John, who was kind enough to let me attend his lengthy sound check, and to let me converse with him further in his dressing room.
I had been a devoted fan of his music since the early seventies and relished the chance to meet this guitar giant. Back in Belfast, I had played guitar in a jazz-rock band called Arcadia Lake, and the other guitarist in the band, Bill Campbell, happened to be in London at this time, so off we went, the two of us, to meet John. I told John that we played a version of Mahavishnu's 'The Dance of Maya', arranged by Bill, with me doing the Jerry Goodman stuff and Bill doing John's solo after the 12-bar sequence. John showed great interest in our music. I asked John if he still used his black Les Paul Custom, the famous guitar shown on the back cover of The Inner Mounting Flame. 'Well no, I don't play that guitar any more. It was sitting under my bed gathering dust as it were, so I gave it to one of my guitar students who didn't have the means to own a good guitar.' I said to John that the black Gibson was an iconic guitar, and he replied 'the guitar has a new home now, is constantly being played, and serves its purpose well.' I was surprised again when I asked John what sort of amplifier he was playing his electro-acoustic Wechter guitar through. 'I use a standard Tom Scholz Rockman, which I find very convenient.’ 'You use a Rockman?', I asked, in surprise. 'Yes, just a simple Rockman.' It's very compact and delivers, through my front of house [live mixing desk], an extremely good sound'. I should mention that John couldn’t resist having a bit of fun as he told me this, saying with a somewhat hilarious and exaggerated drawl: ‘I use a Rockman…I’m a Rockman!!!’’.
Music was not the sole focus of discussion; I asked John about his noted spiritual side: 'Who are the people you have learned from in a spiritual manner?' John: 'I would have to say people such as Krishnamurti,and of course Thomas Merton.' 'Are you referring to the Catholic priest?' I inquired. John: 'Well, he was a Trappist Monk and prolific author,and he endeavoured to break down the boundaries between the various World Religions. They both mean a lot to me.' Of course, for John, music goes hand in hand with the spirituality thing, and this aspect to McLaughlin is clearly reflected in the interview.
I feel it necessary to impress upon the reader the significance to me of meeting this musical giant. In our family home, back in a small town on the outskirts of Belfast, with its troubled history, John McLaughlin had been a musical inspiration and legend for so long, and now here he was, large as life and twice as vivid, unassuming, kind, humorous, and above all, passionate about his music and his guitar playing.
John was in England with percussionist Trilok Gurtu and bassist Jeff Berlin. He would return with Kai Eckhardt (as bassist) the following year to play the concert immortalized on the recording ‘John McLaughlin Trio: Live at the Royal Festival Hall, November 27, 1989’. The repertoire was similar, but in 1988, John was not using the synth attachment (by Photon) he used so well and so extensively on that recording, just the (magnificent) Abe Wechter electro-acoustic guitar. In 1988, they were booked to play not in London, or anywhere else, but only in the Northern city of Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. They played two sets: one at 6.30 and the second from 9, at the Newcastle Town Hall, the day after this interview. I travelled up to see these and to further talk with John, who was kind enough to let me attend his lengthy sound check, and to let me converse with him further in his dressing room.
I had been a devoted fan of his music since the early seventies and relished the chance to meet this guitar giant. Back in Belfast, I had played guitar in a jazz-rock band called Arcadia Lake, and the other guitarist in the band, Bill Campbell, happened to be in London at this time, so off we went, the two of us, to meet John. I told John that we played a version of Mahavishnu's 'The Dance of Maya', arranged by Bill, with me doing the Jerry Goodman stuff and Bill doing John's solo after the 12-bar sequence. John showed great interest in our music. I asked John if he still used his black Les Paul Custom, the famous guitar shown on the back cover of The Inner Mounting Flame. 'Well no, I don't play that guitar any more. It was sitting under my bed gathering dust as it were, so I gave it to one of my guitar students who didn't have the means to own a good guitar.' I said to John that the black Gibson was an iconic guitar, and he replied 'the guitar has a new home now, is constantly being played, and serves its purpose well.' I was surprised again when I asked John what sort of amplifier he was playing his electro-acoustic Wechter guitar through. 'I use a standard Tom Scholz Rockman, which I find very convenient.’ 'You use a Rockman?', I asked, in surprise. 'Yes, just a simple Rockman.' It's very compact and delivers, through my front of house [live mixing desk], an extremely good sound'. I should mention that John couldn’t resist having a bit of fun as he told me this, saying with a somewhat hilarious and exaggerated drawl: ‘I use a Rockman…I’m a Rockman!!!’’.
Music was not the sole focus of discussion; I asked John about his noted spiritual side: 'Who are the people you have learned from in a spiritual manner?' John: 'I would have to say people such as Krishnamurti,and of course Thomas Merton.' 'Are you referring to the Catholic priest?' I inquired. John: 'Well, he was a Trappist Monk and prolific author,and he endeavoured to break down the boundaries between the various World Religions. They both mean a lot to me.' Of course, for John, music goes hand in hand with the spirituality thing, and this aspect to McLaughlin is clearly reflected in the interview.
I feel it necessary to impress upon the reader the significance to me of meeting this musical giant. In our family home, back in a small town on the outskirts of Belfast, with its troubled history, John McLaughlin had been a musical inspiration and legend for so long, and now here he was, large as life and twice as vivid, unassuming, kind, humorous, and above all, passionate about his music and his guitar playing.
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John McLaughlin Interview
in Sept/Oct issue of Jazznews, 1988
James Connolly
I first heard John McLaughlin on the John Peel Radio Show [on BBC Radio One] in the early seventies. What came out of the radio was intense, disturbing, beautiful -a furious marriage between jazz and very hard rock. The album was The Inner Mounting Flame [by The Mahavishnu Orchestra] on CBS and at that point it was [one of] the highest selling jazz records ever, selling even more than Miles' landmark Bitches Brew. Sixteen years later McLaughlin is back into one of his acoustic moods, playing a beautiful Abe Wechter custom cutaway nylon string guitar, backed by Jeff Berlin on Fender bass and Trilok Gurtu on a variety of electronic and acoustic percussion instruments, including a bucket of water. Having seen several of his summer concerts in England, I can tell you that the flame is still there. When I met him I was surprised to find that he speaks with a slight French accent. (He has lived in Monaco for a number of years, he told me.) My good friend and fellow guitarist Bill Campbell told John that he's been having trouble finding other musicians with whom to play his type of music. John replied 'Well, quite a few people don't know where they are going to musically, so if you're going to look for them I don't think you're going to be lucky. What really is essential is that you make your own musical identity very strong. You should also play with as many different people as you can'. During the course of our conversation I asked John why he was, as I'd heard, an admirer of William Blake. 'I'm influenced by his poetry and also his thoughts. He was so free and he would just say exactly what he felt in a beautiful way. Because what we say is important and true, especially if you feel it very strongly. Also it's not what you say, it's the way you say it. It’s like what Duke Ellington said, ''It's not what you play, it's the way that you play it''. Blake was a real flower child in a vital way. He was against organised this and organised that... the hypocrisy in the political and religious worlds. He was saying that we should break our shackles to be free, essentially'. I asked him if he'd read James Joyce's Ulysses. 'No, I haven't read that, which is to my loss, but I had the pleasure of seeing John Huston's last film, The Dead, and that was based on a short story by Joyce. I found it very moving.' I took the opportunity to give John a copy of Ulysses as well as Seamus Heaney's North. As we talked I became aware of how modest John is about his prodigious talent [I had suggested he has legendary status]: 'If people want to call me a living legend...(he smiles and sighs)...well, I just can't take that seriously. I'm only doing my job.' Yet, that 'job' is a spiritual one: indeed, that aspect is very pronounced. 'Music is the language of love and so it is dealing with the same levels of passion. Passion in the sense of love of God, or even human love.'
When asked about composition he had this to say: 'Ideas or feelings appear in my head and the fact that they are there is very important to me, because they influence the way I go in music and in life. So I cannot ignore these feelings or impulses. I must pay attention to them'. 'Do you feel a great responsibility to render as truthfully as possible the musical idea that you've grabbed?' 'That's a curious question...What I really feel responsible to is the music and the original idea. Because the original idea is a pure thing.' To John McLaughlin all things are relative and all things have a good side. It’s obvious that his devotion to God as expressed through his guitar and his music is his prime motivating force.
'I feel very strongly that in life we all have tremendous potential. But we've got to give ourselves a chance. No matter what a person wants to be, a writer, a musician, whatever, the thing is you have to give it a really good chance. And even if it doesn't happen, then at least you have the satisfaction of saying at least I did my best. You don't have any regrets then. There is no reason why a person shouldn't do everything he or she wants to do. I'm a great believer in work and the capacity that we have to achieve the higher levels of life. In fact the spirit is everything. But you've got to give the spirit a chance. Let it do its job. The spirit is the great transformer. To release the spirit you just dedicate yourself to it. You don't think about it. If you're dedicated and you love what you do then you have to pursue it and fight for it. Nothing good comes easy. But that's part of the deal. That's what makes it attractive. If it were easy it wouldn't be anything. For me, dedicated work is the incarnation of love. It is love manifested. I'm convinced of that.'
With the new John McLaughlin trio it's easy to discern the Eastern influence, which reached its zenith in the middle seventies with his Indian group Shakti. To a song such as 'Are You The One? Are You The One?' (previously recorded on electric guitar with Jack Bruce and Tony Williams on the 1978 Johnny McLaughlin:Electric Guitarist) John has now added a section in which he sings in Gujarati along with Trilok Gurtu. The effect of the Eastern singing with a funk background is quite astounding. So I asked him why he has been so influenced by the East [and India in particular]. 'Why not? It's there and it's beautiful. We can learn things from it'. It is for this reason that one of his main modes of practice is to play Indian ragas. (A raga is a very advanced series of notes which can be played in an almost infinite variety of ways up and down and across the fretboard.)
'Which classical composers do you listen to?' 'Well, Ravel is definitely my favourite, but my favourite living composer is Luciano Berio. His electronic work, symphonic work, everything! He's totally free and perhaps crazy too in the best way.' 'And what about Olivier Messiaens?' 'I'm not a big fan of his. Except for Quartet for The End of Time. The rest of his stuff goes right over my head. And I've really tried, I really have. But I have a problem just appreciating it. Boulez, he's the same. He's got a head like this...[gesturing]', John laughs. He's a very clever guy, very intelligent. But I don't get a lot from the music. Of course this is my problem. But I don't blame them. I blame none of them. I'm incapable of comprehending what is going on...in a musical way. And for me the verb “enjoy” is very important when it comes to music.' Which is why John’s new trio strives to make their every concert something special, something dynamic and something to be savoured.
I asked John about application. 'Application is everything. If you don't work hard at something then how are you going to improve? If your phrasing on the guitar doesn't please you, then find a way that makes you happy. Work at whatever it is you feel deficient in until you are happy. Is that not logical?
But it doesn't come overnight, and it won't come without hard work. Life is too short to waste our time not realising our potential. We don't know when we have to go... It might be tomorrow. Who knows? But in this life we can't hedge around. In all things I would say ''Go for It!''’
And this very special guitarist and composer certainly does go for it. The last time he played in Ireland was in the very early sixties. ‘Would he like to play in Ireland again?’ I asked as we wrapped up. ‘Of course I would. I have fond memories of my last visit. It’s a beautiful country which you should be proud of.’
When asked about composition he had this to say: 'Ideas or feelings appear in my head and the fact that they are there is very important to me, because they influence the way I go in music and in life. So I cannot ignore these feelings or impulses. I must pay attention to them'. 'Do you feel a great responsibility to render as truthfully as possible the musical idea that you've grabbed?' 'That's a curious question...What I really feel responsible to is the music and the original idea. Because the original idea is a pure thing.' To John McLaughlin all things are relative and all things have a good side. It’s obvious that his devotion to God as expressed through his guitar and his music is his prime motivating force.
'I feel very strongly that in life we all have tremendous potential. But we've got to give ourselves a chance. No matter what a person wants to be, a writer, a musician, whatever, the thing is you have to give it a really good chance. And even if it doesn't happen, then at least you have the satisfaction of saying at least I did my best. You don't have any regrets then. There is no reason why a person shouldn't do everything he or she wants to do. I'm a great believer in work and the capacity that we have to achieve the higher levels of life. In fact the spirit is everything. But you've got to give the spirit a chance. Let it do its job. The spirit is the great transformer. To release the spirit you just dedicate yourself to it. You don't think about it. If you're dedicated and you love what you do then you have to pursue it and fight for it. Nothing good comes easy. But that's part of the deal. That's what makes it attractive. If it were easy it wouldn't be anything. For me, dedicated work is the incarnation of love. It is love manifested. I'm convinced of that.'
With the new John McLaughlin trio it's easy to discern the Eastern influence, which reached its zenith in the middle seventies with his Indian group Shakti. To a song such as 'Are You The One? Are You The One?' (previously recorded on electric guitar with Jack Bruce and Tony Williams on the 1978 Johnny McLaughlin:Electric Guitarist) John has now added a section in which he sings in Gujarati along with Trilok Gurtu. The effect of the Eastern singing with a funk background is quite astounding. So I asked him why he has been so influenced by the East [and India in particular]. 'Why not? It's there and it's beautiful. We can learn things from it'. It is for this reason that one of his main modes of practice is to play Indian ragas. (A raga is a very advanced series of notes which can be played in an almost infinite variety of ways up and down and across the fretboard.)
'Which classical composers do you listen to?' 'Well, Ravel is definitely my favourite, but my favourite living composer is Luciano Berio. His electronic work, symphonic work, everything! He's totally free and perhaps crazy too in the best way.' 'And what about Olivier Messiaens?' 'I'm not a big fan of his. Except for Quartet for The End of Time. The rest of his stuff goes right over my head. And I've really tried, I really have. But I have a problem just appreciating it. Boulez, he's the same. He's got a head like this...[gesturing]', John laughs. He's a very clever guy, very intelligent. But I don't get a lot from the music. Of course this is my problem. But I don't blame them. I blame none of them. I'm incapable of comprehending what is going on...in a musical way. And for me the verb “enjoy” is very important when it comes to music.' Which is why John’s new trio strives to make their every concert something special, something dynamic and something to be savoured.
I asked John about application. 'Application is everything. If you don't work hard at something then how are you going to improve? If your phrasing on the guitar doesn't please you, then find a way that makes you happy. Work at whatever it is you feel deficient in until you are happy. Is that not logical?
But it doesn't come overnight, and it won't come without hard work. Life is too short to waste our time not realising our potential. We don't know when we have to go... It might be tomorrow. Who knows? But in this life we can't hedge around. In all things I would say ''Go for It!''’
And this very special guitarist and composer certainly does go for it. The last time he played in Ireland was in the very early sixties. ‘Would he like to play in Ireland again?’ I asked as we wrapped up. ‘Of course I would. I have fond memories of my last visit. It’s a beautiful country which you should be proud of.’